[EX-100 - v2.3.0.0] [19H2 Build 18363.xx] Watered Down Build

Testing new Windows 19H2 with last WinReducer to create a build that only removes bloat but keeps a Windows with basic functionality....

Seems like with every new Windows version new components break Windows Update...

Features
v [v0.2] - Data Center Bridging (DCB)
x [v0.1] - Host Guardian
x [v0.1] - Hyper-V
v [v0.2] - Internet Information Services (IIS)
v [v0.2] - MultiPoint Connector
v [v0.1] - Net Framework 4.6 Network Advanced Services
v [v0.1] - Printing - LPR Port Monitor
v [v0.1] - Printing - LPD Print Service
v [v0.2] - Printing - Fax and Scan Services
v [v0.2] - Telnet Client and Server
v [v0.1] - Windows Identity Foundation 3.5
v [v0.1] - Windows Media Player
x [v0.1] - Windows Sandbox
v [v0.1] - Windows Subsystem for Linux

Remove - Accessories
v [v0.1] - 16-bit Support
x [v0.1] - Administrative Tools (Hyper-V Manager) + Shortcut
v [v0.2] - Administrative Tools (IIS Manager) + Shortcut
v [v0.2] - Administrative Tools (IIS6 Manager) + Shortcut
v [v0.1] - Diagnostics (Windows Media Player)
[v0.1] - Point Of Service (POS) Access

Remove - Control Panels
v [v0.1] - Control Panel - Backup and Restore (Windows 7) + (Files)

Remove - Drivers
xxx [v0.1] - Hyper-V - All
v [v0.1] - Network - ISDN - IBM
v [v0.1] - Network - ISDN - Microsoft
xxx [v0.1] - Printer - All
v Printer - Brother
v Printer - Canon
v Printer - Dell
v Printer - East Kodak Corporation
v Printer - Epson
v Printer - Fuji Xerox
v Printer - Hewlett Packard
v Printer - Konica Minolta
v Printer - Kyocera
v Printer - Lexmark International
v Printer - NEC
v Printer - OKI
v Printer - Ricoh
v Printer - Samsung
v Printer - Toshiba
v Printer - Xerox
x Printer - Microsoft (Print to PDF)
x Printer - Microsoft (Write to PDF)
x Printer - XPS
v [v0.1] - Scanner - All
[v0.1] - Support - Point Of Service (POS) - All

Remove - Languages
xxx [v0.1] - All
x Language Pack Support

Remove - Modern UI Apps
[v0.1] - 3D Builder
[v0.1] - 3D Print
[v0.1] - 3D Viewer
[v0.1] - Bing - All
[v0.1] - Paint 3D
[v0.1] - Print 3D
[v0.1] - Zune - All

Remove - Multimedia
[v0.1] - Windows Media Center

Remove - Themes
[v0.1] - Cursors - (L) + (XL)

Tweaks
[v0.1] - Context Menu - Remove Add to WMP list from audio files
[v0.1] - Context Menu - Remove Edit With Paint 3D link for picture files
[v0.1] - Explorer - Increase Icon Cache to 4MB
[v0.1] - Explorer - Run in a Separate Process
[v0.1] - System - Enable Large System Cache

Last edited by Whirlinurd on Fri 31 Jan 2020 - 4:06; edited 39 times in total

Current Issues I found over the versions:

WinReducer 2.3.0.0
Windows 10 Home [19H2]

- [v0.1] - Incomplete error message cumulative update but installed anyway.
- [v0.2] - Rollback cumulative update. VMWare driver issue.

WinReducer 2.2.7.0
Windows 10 Home [19H1]

- [v0.4] - Character Map [Not removed]
- [v0.5] - Focus Assist [Defender Update error]
- [v0.4] - Snipping Tool [Not removed]
- [v0.4] - Steps Recorder [Not removed]
- [v0.5] - Wordpad [Not removed]
- [v0.6] - Control Panel - Backup and Restore (Windows 7) + (Files) [Not removed]
- [v0.4] - Control Panel - Speech Recognition [Not Removed] [Re-appears after Update]
- [v0.2] - Your Phone [Tile remains Start Menu] [Later preset disappeared?]
- [v1.1] - Game Bar - All [Not removed] [Linked to XBox Live Games]
- [v0.7] - Edge (JScript Engine) [Not removed]
- [v0.9] - OneDrive + (Online Backup) [Not removed - Protected]

Maybe more components are not removed that I can not trace. At the moment these look very minor.

Last edited by Whirlinurd on Sun 26 Jan 2020 - 18:52; edited 7 times in total

Maybe if someone is interested to try it out.

Downloads:

Note: Unattended settings are used:

When using preset change default username and password to personal preference.

Admin account = Admin; Password = Admin
User account = User; Password = Test123

Windows Update - Works
Windows Defender - Works

[Final] - Preset [v1.1]

Hi Whirlinurd
Windows is very nasty, all registry managers using the "Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00" provide false information
registry size in normal & safe mode are frequently different
a registry item removed via a registry in mormal mode shows up in safe mod
directly deleting a registry in the registry editor in normal boot  shows up frequently again in safe mode
in the "Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00" editors there are nasty tricks, i found out some, but there are more of them.
In my vieuw the windows registry has 3 parts, mayby more :
1 a real part
2 a partly doubled  registry
3 a fake part  created trough the "Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00" 
See all the items Winterstorm removed and which show up again.., is this normal ?
icy

Hi All.

Creating a new build based on the newest Windows 10 and WinReducer. Simple debloated version with only components removed that really do not add any real functionality to the current Windows. Every now and then updating any current issues or problems found.

Any suggestions are welcome...

Did some tests to make a simple build. Something in the Hyper-V driver section cripples the Windows Update doing a roll back every time. Maybe I am going to build some more to find which one it is. When I find it there will be an update. Probably WinReducer at the moment needs some improvements for newer Windows releases.

From what I understand, you're trying to install cumulative updates on an extreme winreduced os like you normally would do in an untouched Windows.
Believe me: it's a lost battle! I tried so many times and I had to renounce!
Not only it will never work in this way, but it will also fails if you accept to update the system in another more complicated method which involves, on every new cumulative update, rebuilding the ISO with the integrated updates and then launch the installer from your winreduced OS. The expected behaviour is that the installer should allow you to reinstall your new updated iso and keep all your data (files, programs, settings etc), but this is not going to happen and you will left with the only option to erase the whole disk before it allows you to continue.
You can see my posts and bug reports for the technical details of what happens.
It seems that the development of cumulative update support has been abandoned long time ago. Don't ask me why such important feature which should be on first place on to do list is not actively developed anymore like does other popular tools like MSMG toolkit and NtLite because I am still asking myself the reason for such nonsense behaviour.

In other words, and I know you don't to want to hear that, if you want to keep your system update, in WR you will have to reinstall from scratch each month and even less if you need .Net framework updates or similar and this means reinstalling each time your application, settings, data, etc.
Pure hell, I know!!

The only way to make it work like you want is doing minimal changes to your iso in order to reduce the chances of update dependencies and this goes against the main purpose of winreducer. If you'll have success with this nonsense configuration, the update will restore most of your removed components making your efforts and work totally useless. And the same preset you used to successfully install an update will have high chances that will not work in the next cumulative update because the components check may change.

I know, very bad news!

P.s. I am also using [EX-100 - v2.3.0.0] [19H2 Build 18363.xx]

Thanks Davidoff458.

Since the update method of Windows has changed it has been a problem for WinReducer to get it right. Windows Update cleanup has been broken also from that time. I have been doing these tests on and off since TH1 and usually after an extensive search most of the time only several components break Windows Update. Why this happens I do not know. Once I had a WLAN driver break Windows Cumulative Update.

The previous 19H1 build of Windows was less of a problem. Only Focus Assist breaks Windows Defender Update as I finally found out.

In 19H2 I will see... Windows Update will work. That is a must for me.

Hello friend,
windows updates clean up works fine for me, if you refer to "WinSXS Folder cleanup (install.wim)". After installation the folder is only 64 Mb (against 5 Gb and more). You may want to check my topic called "WinSXS Folder compression" VS "WinSXS Folder cleanup (install.wim)" to see if you missed something.

Problem is that even if we keep components that breaks a particular CU, the next month could be released another CU which will pretend to find components not required from the previous CU ending again in a failure. It's just impossible to deal with that.
I encouraged more times winterstorm to adopt the same update method used from Ntlite.

From what I see, as of now, the only safe way to keep a winreduced system updated is what we all trying to avoid: a full reinstall with all the updates integrated.
This step is easy and fast, the real problem is the restoration of all settings, applications and so on. You may want to check my long thread especially the latest comments where I discuss with another user how this process could be automated (feel free to post your comments and questions):
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Oh my God, drivers!! You reminded me that not only cumulative updates is pure hell, but also drivers! However, that method should work also with drivers (although I have yet to test it).
Thanks

What is about WuMgr (https://github.com/DavidXanatos/wumgr)? Had anyone tested if this tool can install CU after WinSxS Folder cleanup? For me it seems to work, even with removed windows update, but I havn't verify if the updates are really working because I don't know how.

Yes, I tried it. With full cleanup (included WinSXS and the removal of all windows updates component/services) it refuses to start. However if I keep Windows Update service it starts and find the updates. Removal tools, definitions and a few (very small ones) install fine (useless for me because I consider antivirus a big waste of resources for experienced users who already know how to avoid virus and malware)... except CU!
If I remember not only fails regular CU, but also the ones related to .Net framework.

On an ISO with integrated CU, the app tried to reinstall it again, but I think this is due to the ISO version (I used international instead of US version, big mistake!). The behaviour should be the same even with the windows built in updater.

Even if this app cannot make CU installable (it relies on Windows) is still useful for getting notified of new updates when we removed everything (and may be to install some very light and non intrusive updates). It is also useful if we keep the built in windows updater because it allow to block windows updates (through Windows settings, the pending CU which we know to be not installable can only be delayed for limited time).
You can find more info about this tool and tests in my topic:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Not sure on how you made it to work, but I suppose it worked because you didn't removed the components the CU checks for, but as soon as you remove one of them (and they can change on each CU release)...kaboom !!
I would not rely on luck especially when dealing with WU!

As I mentioned already I removed windows update functionality completely. If you are interested, here is my wccf: https://transfer.sh/bOqSn/Win10x64lite.wccf

In fact sometimes I get the message that a download adress of a CU isn't found. But afterwards it's installed.  ???

That's why I'm a little bit uncertain wether everything is working fine ...

Mhhh...there is much more to strip down from your ISO. I remember that my initial prototypes was like yours and I was able to install CU, but as soon as I started to remove further components it stopped working.
I think that for this reason it works in your case at least until the new CU will checks for something that your system does not have.
Also, why you are using an obsolete version of WinReducer? Current version is 2.3.0.0
Not finding the download url may be related to a bug of the tool. Try to open the link in the browser to see if the file exists.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Last edited by davidoff458 on Thu 30 Jan 2020 - 15:07; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Updated with the new link to avoid people who read from being redirected to an old topic I marked for deletion)

The old version of winreducer was the one I used when I modified my wccf the last time. My installation is even older than that but updatable!

When I started with Winreducer years ago I also had the ambition to build a small as possible ISO. But over time I noticed the small drawbacks and decided to build a maximally stable system that lacks nothing that I occasionally need. This saves a lot of time and nerves and storage space is cheap today.

You're using a very old windows 10? Sometimes I ask myself if we really need to stay updated with new features and builds because I feel that they kill performance and system resources.
Well, mine is also an ambition, but a forced ambition because with an SSD of 64Gb (non upgradable)  and 4 Gb of ram (non upgradable). the only solution is to puh all the limit,
In my tests done with a very extreme iso I noticed amazing improvements in performance and finished to tweak windows I should expect another boost.
Yes. storage is cheap and I am in the process to buy a pendrive 3,0 along with an adapter to use my sata III hard disk.
Afterall, building an extreme iso is not so hard, it just take a bit of patience. The real problems come when new updates are released.

I just updated the topic with all the experiments I have done step by steps. It's very interesting and confirmed that even with minimal iso the failure is around the corner. You guys may want to take a look, there are really nice findings,,,

We definitely do not need updates for new features, because we use winreducer to remove unnecessary features. But we need updates for security reasons.

The main problem seems to be winSxS folder cleanup, which I don't want to do without, because it brings a lot of space reduction. But what I don't understand is that winSxS folder cleanup prevents an update with Windows, but not with WuMgr. This is another reason why I am so sceptical about the messages of this tool.

I very much hope that winterstorm will one day succeed in improving winSxS folder cleanup or replacing it with something better.

Hi Hanyo

How much is the WinSXS in Your Windows ?

In my case it doesn' t seem to work

0 k / 3,392,688 k in 0 / 0 file(s), 0 / 8660 dir(s)

icy

I checked the size in my installation ISO by mounting it:
96,8 MB
206 files
44 dirs

Hanyo wrote:

We definitely do not need updates for new features, because we use winreducer to remove unnecessary features. But we need updates for security reasons.

The main problem seems to be winSxS folder cleanup, which I don't want to do without, because it brings a lot of space reduction. But what I don't understand is that winSxS folder cleanup prevents an update with Windows, but not with WuMgr. This is another reason why I am so sceptical about the messages of this tool.

I very much hope that winterstorm will one day succeed in improving winSxS folder cleanup or replacing it with something better.

Yes, we can survive without features and improved user interface once we found the perfect balance. The real problem is security and the main reason for which cumulative updates are released is security updates and critical updates (exploits etc). It also addresses system internal bugs and although we can delay these updates, applications will continue to getting updated based on these fixes. Soon or later we are going to have troubles (big troubles) if we avoid updates for too much time and I experienced this multiple times.

Guys, why you say that WinSXS cleanup does not work?
My folder was only 64 Mb on a fresh install with a minimum set of files needed from system. I can't give more details because I deleted the install, but as far as I know it always worked for me.
May be there is something wrong with your wccf.
This sounds to me like the WinSXS compression bug which does not compress the folder:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
With a different wccf the compression worked.
It seems to be that there is some particular setting in the wccf that prevents these two features from working and they both seems strictly related.
I suspect that Windows Update protection may play a role in this. I would try to uncheck everything in the presets tab except important files protection to see if cleanup works (if I remember well this was my config plus windows search protection mode enabled).
I am going to update the bug report with these new findings.

Hanyo, winsxs folder cleanup and cumulative updates at the same is never going to happen. However I believe that the method I described in detail in my linked topic should work even with winsxs cleanup. In reality it does not work even with windows update in full protection mode and even with light customized isos, but I'm afraid that more than a bug this may have to do with the abandonment of update support development.

WuMgr should be reliable because it uses the Windows Update agent. If something does not work in WuMgr, it is likely that will not work even when using the settings app.

I used winSxS folder cleanup and updated with WuMgr, although the complete windows update functionality is removed. Are you trying to tell me that the above message from WuMgr is a phantom message? As I said, I am quite skeptical, but I would like to have convincing arguments.

With complete winsxs folder cleanup some minor updates should still work whether you use WinMgr or the settings app. However without cumulative updates (the main one, .Net framework and others) they are completely useless.

I don't think that WuMgr is wrong. You're trying to install a cumulative update and this will never work. Windows settings app just fail, undo changes and tells you nothing more than "Update failed" (or an useless generic error code). WuMgr tries to give some (wrong) reason for the failure. In the end, they are both right in telling that update has been a failure.

We are all waiting that winterstorm come back to confirm (or not) in my topic the abandonment of the update functionality development. If this is the case, it is fine for me because I can finally know that the only way to go is to do a full reinstall each time and focus my efforts in the automation of this process.
If you're trying to keep your system updated like you're used to be in an untouched windows, I'm afraid that will never happen, no matter what winter does. The maximum we can hope (and I am very skeptical) is to see the method described in my topic working again. It could be automated (like "Host refresh wizard" of Ntlite), but this the choice of winter which I believe depends in part from people interest (I am the only one to have proposed this in the topics).

Please look again at the screenshot above: WuMgr sais that the CU KB4534273 is successfully installed.

If there is one thing I have learned by using Winreducer, it is that without great care you never have the chance to understand a problem.

This could explain in part your problem:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Hard to say if it is really installed or not despite what stated from the control panel and WuMgr.
In the last windows (build 1909) if a CU fails to install the system undo changes and if the process complete you know that you're back to initial state, but you're using a very old build...
In the past, everytime I tried to avoid upgrades I have always gone into troubles over the time.
This topic is refreshing my memory and remind to me never do the same mistake.

Hi all.

In my adventures I had only one time where a cumulative update failed again after a few months of using a reduced Windows. With 19H1 I did not have this issue since I installed it. So this is not very common. As for alternatives to installing updates like update manager is a possibility but I like to keep it within the working system.

As for WinSXS compression and the mention of storage not being expensive I do not really care anymore how big an installation is. Surely if an option in WinReducer is working 100 percent without issue I will use it.

Most of the times I just create lighter builds and stepped away from going to extreme as I did before. These runs of building are just to find components that are creating issues and of course break Windows Update. Since I do not want to install Windows every time a update is released Windows Update is important to work for me.

Whatever my findings are,  it is up to Winterstorm if he wants to use them as reference for updating WinReducer.

Thanks.

Currently...:
Have a few days off. Creating a few new builds to still find which VMWare drivers are causing issues with Windows Update.

Whirlinurd, considering that CU are released monthly (plus .Net framework ones, plus optional ones) and you succesfully updated once from your first install before failing again, then I would not call this as a success.

Update Manager (WuMGR) fails just like fails built in updater, unless they are minus updates or virus definition etc. However is still useful to get notified when it's time to update and rebuild the iso along for drivers updates.
I have given up messing with updates and stick with the solution to integrate updates each time. I'll use the full removal included WinSXS folder (I noticed that this folder over the time grows like a monster!!!) and all related components. If you had chances to look my new topic containing findings on that matter I explained in detail a method which is supposed to be safe and will allow to preserve files, apps and settings. Unfortunately it stopped working in the final stage.
I realized that it is impossible to deal with updates because we will have soon trouble. Instead the reinstall method containing the updates is supposed to be stable over the time and never fail. There are feature updates released twice per year, so I will update each three months and then the features update. It should be more acceptable in this way. We all want the easy way, but with it we will also have to deal with the problem of integrity violation and the high chances that all the component return back. It really not worth the hassle because when this happens you have to find out what's happening and lose precious time. Instead through the integration method, we know what to do and that will work and part of the restoral process can be automated.
May be that one day winter will develop a new stable method to update, but until now the best solution is the one we are trying to avoid. Icy007 told me this several times and at the end I had to see this with my eyes.

The size of an installation is not just a matter of storage size. The more the install size the more the system will slowdown because will consume resources, processes etc. It is not just like video files which remain dormients and consume resources only when played.

I am now going to play with drivers section. I now want to try another technique: removing all drivers except the USB required to boot the iso and the wireless adapter. In this way I will only get updated drivers from WuMgr (since windows update functionality will be completely removed). In this way the machine will not contains unused and obsolete drivers. I am only concerned about the fields starting with "Support for". I am afraid that without them a particular device can't be used anymore even if drivers are provided. Not sure will have to experiment.

I would use hyper-v for testing (although realiable testing can only be done in real machine) it take care of the drivers needed, but when dealing with virtual machine, we cannot test for drivers because virtual machines uses their own emulation drivers. I am afraid that for testing drivers we can only use directly on the hardware,